In this episode Trent responds to Protestant criticisms of Catholicism on a recent episode of the George Janko podcast.
Transcript:
Trent:
Recently the George Janko podcast hosted a group of Protestant influencers that he called the Christian Avengers, which include Ruslan KD, Cliff and Stuart Knechtel, Bryce Crawford, Johnny Chang, and the Ladies from Girls Gone Bible. Before I talk about their takes on Catholicism, I want to note that many of their takes on other issues in their discussion reveals deep flaws in Protestantism, though I think many of them represent modern evangelical views of the faith rather than classic Protestantism. With Ruly probably being the most informed on high church Protestantism and the apostolic churches like Orthodoxy and Catholicism for example, they spend a lot of time discussing if you are saved, even if you still willingly sin. Here’s George Janko on that subject.
CLIP:
I’ll use myself as an example. Say I, there’s two versions of me. One gives up marijuana and one doesn’t give up marijuana, but my heart will always love God. I will never not love God. And to be honest, there’s a lot of people that smoke and they read their Bible and they’re with God. They’re just a slave to this. Now, I just keep using this as an example because I’ve walked through it. What happened? If God forbid I died and I was still sinning even though I knew it was sinning, when I meet my father, is he going to say No, you didn’t walk away from it when he walked away from it, or is it just the punishment that I have on earth that I robbed myself from this earth of beautiful things that he could have made when he says that my will will be done in heaven and on earth? Am I just robbing myself right here, but because I love him and it’s not my works and it is because what Jesus did, do I still enter the kingdom or did I lose myself and did my sin kill me and separate me from my father?
Trent:
What’s interesting is that later in the show, the panelists say All you need to be saved is to just believe in Jesus, but throughout the show they also add a lot of little qualifications that would turn into a giant list if you spelled them all out of what you need to do to be saved. This is a problem I noted in my previous episode, the not so simple Protestant plan of salvation. Just believe in Jesus and don’t be Catholic or just believe in Jesus and don’t smoke marijuana. I guess on a side note, I would say smoking marijuana is not a sin just as drinking alcohol is not a sin, but getting high or drunk is a sin IE, it’s sinful to give up your rational faculties for a bad reason even though you could give them up for a good reason like going under anesthesia for an operation.
But the more important thing we need to focus on is the tension in Protestantism between those who say that you are saved by Jesus alone and not by your works, and those who say if you’re a true Christian, well then you’re going to live a certain way as a Catholic. I agree. We are initially saved by grace alone even without faith such as an infant baptism, and after that the only good work that saves us is the good work of not throwing away the free gift of salvation through grave un repentance sin in the battle for our souls. In a sinful world that’s at least how it appears to be in the Christian life, but for these Protestants, they want to say works have nothing to do with your salvation, but if you don’t good works that either proves you were not saved in the first place or as some members of the group say later in the episode, God will punish you but not take away your salvation.
CLIP:
This is the issue I have with a lot of my Catholic friends. They would say Anybody who unies himself is going automatically to hell and that’s just common. The board, okay, I don’t believe that, not even close if I die in road rage driving back to the hotel after this and somehow somebody says, oh, he died in road rage, so his last action was he was ticked off, so you died in anger. That type of rage you’re sending you right to hell no, that would be putting everything on works. Righteousness saying that it’s all about your simple works, good or bad that are going to send you to heaven or hell. The unforgivable sin is not about one sin that’s going to send you to hell. It’s about exactly what Kira Knightly talked about when she said, oh, you Christians have it so easy. You can just say, Hey, God, forgive me after I sin any old time and I’m forgiven now. That’s cheap grace obviously. So what it’s all about is the unforgivable sin is hypocritical living, which is saying, I’m believing in Christ. I’m going to live for him. Matthew 1128 is my favorite passage of scripture. Come to me all you who are weary and burdened and I’ll give you rest and it gets back to identity issues. I totally agree. It starts with that type of identity and once you have that identity, now you can say, I have real rest for the soul.
Trent:
First, the Catholic church does not teach that unli a word. I only say under algorithmic extortion is the unforgivable sin. It doesn’t even teach that this is always a mortal sin. It can be if someone takes his life in order to purposely cause pain to other people to promote this evil or to escape punishment for a crime, but in many cases a person is mentally unwell or ill and so he’s not fully culpable for his actions. I remember watching a documentary called The Bridge and it featured a man who tried to unli himself by jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. In that moment he jumped. He knew he had made a horrible mistake and so there can be ways for people in this condition to repent a God of this sin. The catechism says grave, psychological disturbances, anguish or grave fear of hardship, suffering or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing on alive.
We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives by ways known to him alone. God can provide the opportunity for solitary repentance. The church prays for persons who have taken their own lives. This section also shows how to paraphrase the venerable Fulton Sheen. Many people disagree with what they think the Catholic church teaches not with what the Catholic church actually teaches. You notice this when Cliff says that Catholics believe Mary was born of a virgin, which isn’t true because we celebrate the feast day of Mary’s birth to her parents, St. Anne and St. Jokin.
CLIP:
And then we get into, well, was the immaculate Virgin really born of a man and a woman or just similar to the way that his son was born or her son was born a virgin birth and gosh, that’s come on. No, Mary had a dad and a mom, all right, and there was one person who didn’t have an earthly father and that was Jesus Christ.
Trent:
But the deeper problem in this segment, which is evidenced about 20 minutes earlier in the conversation is that the panel cannot give a coherent answer to the question, can a self-professed Christian be saved if he or she willingly sins? Some Christians like free grace theologians are blunt and say, yeah, it doesn’t matter how horrible you are, you will still be saved. But Stewart would say that that’s cheap grace and Catholics will call that the sin of presumption. This might happen if you sin thinking that you plan to go to confession later anyways, and when you confess your sins to a priest, you aren’t really contrite or sorry for your sins and you have not made a firm resolution to reject them, but what consequence for sin makes God’s forgiveness not cheap. Grace, when does willed sin become a sign? The person lives a life incompatible with being a true Christian. Let’s continue in their discussion.
CLIP:
Thank God I am not a slave to pornography anymore, but I know a lot of good men that love their wife, but they’re a slave to pornography. Great husbands, great fathers, but they are just, but here’s another thing is they could convince themselves it’s no big deal, but what happens to the guy like me where I straight up know I’m doing something wrong and that’s what scares me the most is that I know it’s easier for that guy. He doesn’t really know, but I know I literally will have a great conversation with you guys and then not anymore, but I would’ve rolled up a J right afterwards and just smoked it and you knew it was wrong. I knew it was wrong.
Yeah, I would say God disciplines those he loves and that’s a scary place to be like if we’re in the process of practicing sin, knowing it is sinful, God’s going to deal with
Without what? Does that break the salvation?
No, I don’t think so.
Trent:
A few points here. First, if God disciplines us for our sins, then what happens to someone who sins right before he dies? Like Stewart’s example of a guy who has major road rage and then dies in a car accident, when the man gets to heaven, will he still be in a road rage before he gets to heaven? Will God purge that man of his sinful anger through a temporary punishment that reorients his will to loving God and neighbor? If God will do that, then you’ve got the doctrine of purgatory and for more on this exact argument, check out my debate with James White on the subject of purgatory link below. Second, how does Ruan know that habitual sin will not cause us to be separated from God? Let’s say it’s not a man looking at pornography. Let’s say it’s a Christian woman who makes pornography on OnlyFans.
Michael Knowles debated a self-described Christian OnlyFans creator who saw no contradiction in being a Christian pornographer or what about a self-described Christian who willingly performs abortions? If those people are not saved, then that shows you need more than belief in Jesus to be saved. You need obedience to Jesus to be saved. John 3 36 even says He who believes in the son has eternal life. He who does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. Recently I did an episode on how many people will be damned because they think they’ll be saved by just being a good person. The problem is that their standard of a good person is arbitrary. It’s just anyone as good as them or better, which won’t cut it with God. And I noticed something similar with certain Protestants. They will say, you can habitually sin or struggle with sin, even grave sins and still be saved as long as you just feel bad about those sins.
But the only grave sins they mention are ones they personally struggle with like pornography or fornication. They draw the line and say habitual murderers or habitual adulterers or sex traffickers are false Christians no matter how they say they feel about their sins. For example, George says in the episode that Catholic adoration of Christ in the Eucharist, which he calls idolatry, risks our souls as Catholics and so we can’t be saved even if we profess a love for God. And I hope George would say, you cannot be a true Christian if you struggle with performing abortions or sex trafficking because the money you get from it makes you feel good. But George has said you can be a Christian who habitually fornicates or is unchained because sex makes you feel good as long as you feel bad after feeling good. Listen to what he says in the previous episode of his podcast,
CLIP:
I’m going to die. I’m going to die forever because of his Bible verse. And it was the Bible verse that goes, many will come to God and say, have I not prophesied in your name? Have I not casted out demons in your name? Have I not done this and this and this? And God looks at these people that did his work and says, be away from me. I never knew you forever. And in my mind I go, well, these people dedicated their life to him and they’re like, see ya. Who am I, a man who just goes on YouTube and talks about God sins every day? I’m sitting next to my girlfriend and we’re not married. We fool around Cliff. I’m not proud of it, but we do. We sin. So if these guys are doing this and they’re being pushed away, then who am I to be even welcomed into the kingdom of God? And a man explained it to me this way. He goes, because they came with a list of what they did and the truth is whatever I do here is not even worth it.
Trent:
I feel so sad that George got the exact wrong lesson about Matthew chapter seven verses 21 through 23. Here are the verses. Jesus says this, not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven on that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, do we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name and then will I declare to them I never knew you depart from me, you evil doers. The point isn’t that you do not want to brag about your good deeds to God. Jesus’s point is that you cannot love God by merely saying you love God. The ones who enter the father’s kingdom are those who do. The father’s will and the ones who have to depart from God’s presence are the ones who work against God’s will, the evil doers or in Greek, literally the ones who work in lawlessness. Now, recall what George said earlier.
CLIP:
Say there’s two versions of me. One gives up marijuana and one doesn’t give up marijuana, but my heart will always love God. I will never not love God.
Trent:
Now imagine a man says to his wife, look, you know I love you. I will always love you, but I just can’t give up this affair I’m having with this other woman because she makes me happy. Full Skype. If the man truly loved his wife, he would give up the affair. We would rightly say this man only says he loves his wife. He doesn’t really love her because his actions don’t match his words. Likewise, someone who says he loves God but willingly persists in grave, sin does not love God. One John two, three through five say this, we know him if we keep his commandments. He who says, I know him, but disobeys, his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word in him truly love for God is perfected by this. We may be sure that we are in him.
St. Thomas Aquinas said that sin happens when we love a creature more than the creator and this kind of disordered love is incompatible with heaven. Now that doesn’t mean we have to be sinless to be saved. God will purify us of the milder disordered love of creature We have over creator AKA venial sins. But if we gravely choose creature over creator or commit mortal sin, then we have made a choice to reject God that will become permanent if we do not repent of this choice before our death. Once again, our Lord says this, I am the vine. You are the branches. He who abides in me and I in him. He it is that bears much fruit for apart from me. You can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch in withers and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned for more on the truth that we can indeed forsake our salvation. See my debate with James White on that subject, man, James and I make a good duo to teach people about Catholicism. Maybe we should go on the road with a tour or something.
CLIP:
All props to my Eastern Orthodox and my Catholic folks, they’re going to clip this both claim to be the one in true church. Both can’t agree on whether Peter was the bishop of Rome and the first Pope or whether it’s apostolic succession and you need the apostles to pass on the apostolic succession through the disciples. This is literally the schism that they have theologically Pope Catholic apostolic succession, not Catholic, but they believe in the councils. So we say repent and believe in Jesus. That’s it. That’s it. Repent and believe in Jesus. So my position has always been I’m going to let you guys fight over popes and councils and apostolic fathers and I’m going to tell people to repent and believe in Jesus and I think you guys could be saved. I think if you place faith in Jesus, you’re saved, right? So in my opinion, that’s the most Catholic position one can take. The Catholic meaning universal, that’s the most universal position one could take. So I don’t care, I genuinely don’t care and I like watching them fight about it. I like watching the Catholic.
You’re right, there are a lot of Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ who love the Lord and there are a lot of Catholic brothers and sisters who love the Lord and a lot of Protestant brothers and sisters who love the Lord and charismatic and non charismatic and I think we divide the body of Christ in a very sad, unfortunate way When we major on the minors, as Stuart pointed out, we want to major on the majors, not on the minors, but if anybody starts going Jesus plus Jesus is not enough, it’s Jesus. Plus then we got to start drawing the line and saying, no, I’m sorry. It’s Jesus Christ alone.
Trent:
Actually the most universal position Ru could take would be Unitarian universalism. IE believe in anything you want and you’ll still go to heaven. Protestants like to make it seem like Catholics complicate salvation with unnecessary beliefs, but Protestants often radically under simplify their theology for them salvation is not simply faith in Jesus Christ. You also have to believe in the trinity. You also have to believe in the virgin birth. You have to reject a long list of sins. You have to go to church and be baptized and for some of them you have to be baptized again. If you were baptized as an infant, which George admits he did in this episode, and they’ll say You can’t just believe in Jesus, you also can’t be Catholic. You can’t adore Jesus in the Eucharist. You can’t venerate the saints. Now props Jerusalem for saying he does not believe this, but George says he worries about the souls of Catholics
CLIP:
And so I have a lot of brothers and sisters that I deeply weep and ask God to wake them up because I will bring them Bible verses, they’ll read the Bible verses and reject it because the man on the pope is teaching them a certain thing and so we can laugh about it, but their salvation’s on the line.
Trent:
Everyone agrees that Christians must believe in dogmas obligatory elements of the faith beyond the vague command to have faith in Jesus and Catholicism has a better way through the church’s teaching office to enunciate what those dogmas are in contrast to Protestantism that relies on scripture alone and thus the individual’s interpretation of scripture to be the only infallible rule of faith. That’s what we mean when we say the Catholic faith is universal. No matter what culture, place or time you live, there is only one faith and one baptism. You see this at World Youth Day where you can see the fruits of a church that practices a consistent faith throughout the entire world and this is brought about through a visible hierarchy, a sacred order of leadership instituted by Christ that ensures the faith of the apostles is faithfully handed down to every generation, to all the ends of the earth
CLIP:
Praying to saints. I have a lot of people that I love that they do that, so I don’t want to look like I’m harping on this, but Jesus says There is nobody that goes to the Father but besides me. If you want to talk to him, talk to me. And then there’s another Bible verse that says, do not talk to the dead. And then there’s some people that are like, well, are they dead? Because the thief on the cross said that today you’ll be with me in paradise, so there might be some people that are alive that kind of threw me for a little spin. I’m not going to lie, but I just want to know that when I’m praying I find it more valuable to get in my prayer closet alone and speak to my king and then also go to people that correct me and teach me.
Trent:
There’s three kinds of Protestant objections to seeking the intercession of the saints. First, there are practical objections like the idea that the saints in heaven cannot hear our prayers because they’re dead or it would be impossible for the saints to hear so many requests in different languages, but these objections hinge on an omnipotent God being unable to give his friends what is from our perspective, mid-tier level superpowers. You do not have to be all powerful to just be able to hear a lot of people talk or know many languages. If God’s enemy, the devil knows how to attempt billions of people in different languages at the same time, and if God’s servants the angels help human beings and are aware of what happens to us, which is clear in scripture and many Protestants would agree with that, then what would stop an all powerful God from giving his friends the saints the ability to hear and intercede for other members of the body of Christ.
Why wouldn’t God give a Catholic grandmother in heaven the ability to know what is happening to her hundreds of great, great, great grandchildren so she can pray for them accordingly? I’m not saying God can do it, therefore he did do it. My argument is just that Protestants cannot say it is impossible for the saints to do this because the saints serve an all powerful God, whereas our Lord said in Matthew 1926 with God all things are possible. Second, there are principled objections to seeking the intercession of the saints like saying the Bible prohibits speaking to the dead, but these Old Testament passages deal with two way communication to extract information from the dead, the sin of necromancy. I cover this objection in my book, the Case for Catholicism, and you can watch my friend Joe Hess Meyer’s video linked in the scripture below for a comprehensive answer to it.
And finally, there is the Sola scriptura objection which says, we should not ask departed saints to pray for us because the Bible never says that we should do that. Well, the Bible never says to pray directly to the Holy Spirit, but most Protestants don’t say that’s wrong though some do say you can only pray to the Father in Jesus’ name and that’s it. This creates the dilemma of what I call the straight jacket of s... Read more on Catholic.com