Welcome to the Counsel of Trend Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.

Happy New Year everyone. Happy 2024, and also Happy Feast of Mary, the Mother of God, feast of the Theotokos, January 1st. I’m currently taking some time off to spend with family through this part of Christmas tide. Yes, it’s also the Feast of Christmas, until epiphany. Today, I wanted to share with you an older episode that I did on the topic of Mary, the mother of God, specifically rebutting a oneness Pentecostal preacher, Gino Jennings. I really love this episode, because I got help from my friend and colleague, Joe Heschmeyer. Joe has a YouTube channel called Shameless Popery. I’m going to link to it below. Please check it out.

Joe is an awesome Catholic apologist. I’m so grateful we have him on at the team. It was wonderful to do this episode with him. Please go check out his channel below. Don’t forget to like and subscribe to this video as well. Yeah, I’m just so grateful for everything you guys have done to support the channel, and I’m really looking forward to all of the topics and discussions and debates we’ll be having in 2024. Without further ado, here is my rebuttal with Joe Heschmeyer against Gino Jennings, on the dogma of Mary, the Mother of God.

Today we’re going to be rebutting a video from Pastor Gino Jennings, on Mary being the mother of God. Now, at first, I didn’t think it’d be necessary to respond to a 40-minute video from a Protestant pastor on Mary being the mother of God, but actually, while this may appear to be a Protestant pastor, this is not even a Christian pastor, which is why I found this so interesting to respond to. Also, this is a highly entertaining video. Normally I do these myself, not necessarily with a live rebuttal style, but today, I just couldn’t help myself, and you’ll see why, with the entertainment value. But what makes this video really interesting is that Pastor Gino Jennings is a oneness Pentecostal.

So oneness Pentecostals deny the Trinity. They believe that there is one God, but God is not three persons. They think he’s Father, then he becomes the son, then he becomes the spirit. I know it’s confusing. We’ll break it down a lot later, but just suffice it to say, this is a very old heresy that is still around in the church today. I think it’s important that on the question of, is Mary the mother of God? If you deny that, you end up with these kinds of heresies. We’ve got an educational opportunity and an entertainment opportunity.

Well, as I’d say also, because of the unique way he’s approaching the question, the standard Catholic responses to a Trinitarian Protestant who says these things, where you just say, well, look at these absurd conclusions. It doesn’t work with him, because he’ll just say, yeah, I believe all those absurd conclusions.

That’s right, so it’s good for us to introduce you to… And oneness Pentecostals, I think there are more Oneness Pentecostals than Mormons. It’s not a small sect. This is something that we need to be able to confront, that it’s a heresy that has been around for a long time, and so we need to know how to respond to that. I think this is also instructive to share with Protestants, that if you deny Mary’s the mother of God, you quickly spiral into this kind of stuff. Let’s just jump right in. This is going to be fun. Oh, by the way, this video, Catholic Church Challenge Pastor Gino Jennings, it was recorded back in 2008, but it was uploaded to YouTube a month ago, and now it has over 100,000 views.

Right. This is not some weird fringe, in that sense.

No, it is not.

Even though he rejects what 2000 years of Christians have said, a surprising number of people seem to be 100% on board with what he was saying,

Which means it merits a response, so let’s take a look.

This method comes from the Catholic Diocese of Wilmington, Delaware.

All right.

All right. Do they say Pastor Jennings, or just plain Gino?

Gino would do fine.

Amen. The term mother of God is justified by Catholic or Orthodox Christians, by new chapter one, verse 43.

Be sure you get his book, get his chapter and his verse.

Oh yes, the term Mother of God.

Mother of God.

Is justified by Catholic and Orthodox Christians, by Luke 1:43, in which Elizabeth greets the Virgin Mary as, “The mother of our Lord.” Please read this on your television or radio program, this person says. Please keep in mind that your previous remarks about the Catholic Church, this person says, has angered many.

Thank God for that.

Amen. It’s angered many, and will not be tolerated at all.

Let me tell you something, you ain’t got no choice but to tolerate it.

That’s right.

All right. So Pastor Gino Jennings is a character. We’ll be getting into more of him. So the person there, responding to a letter from somebody in a Catholic diocese in Wilmington, they seem to talk about it as if it is the official diocesan response.

I noticed that. I somehow doubt that the bishop wrote… Just said, please send a letter to…

I think this is just a random person from the diocese, who’s objecting to Pastor Gino saying that Mary is not the mother of God, and they’re appealing to what Elizabeth says to Mary.

And she says, why is this [inaudible 00:05:07] the mother of my Lord should come to me.

Right. And so people say, well, how does that show that Mary is the mother of God? Lord can mean a lot of different titles in the ancient world, but here, it’s very specific how Elizabeth is. This is a parallel to what David said when the Ark was brought to him. How is it that the ark of the Lord should be brought to me?

Exactly. It’s like in Samuel six. And in Samuel six, you’ve got David bringing the Ark of the Lord from the hill country of Judah, for three months, and saying, how can the ark of the Lord come to me? And Luke one marries in the hill country of Judah for three months, and Elizabeth says, how the mother of my Lord should come to me. The parallel there is really striking.

Right.

And notice that in Lord, we’re talking about the same Lord who’s [inaudible 00:05:52] in the Ark of the Covenant. This is going to become really important, because he’s going to make some interesting distinctions.

Right.

The ark parallel shouldn’t be lost.

Right. And so it just seems very clear here, even if you only relied on logic, you’d say, well, if Jesus is God, Mary is his mother, so therefore Mary is the mother of God. Unless you’re heretic, like Pastor Gino, and I don’t throw that out lightly. He denies an essential feature of the Trinity, which is heretical.

It’s really fascinating Christology too.

Oh, yes. It does turn into that. But the important point to remember is, we’re going back to, Elizabeth is saying that, how is it that she’s calling Jesus Lord, the mother of my Lord. Not just any kind of customary title, like how you might… When the woman at the well, for example, refers to Jesus as, my Lord, which is like saying, sir, like a customary greeting.

Right, right.

That’s not the context here. So this is a good text to offer and let’s see his response to that, as well as his response to the Catholic challenge in general.

Zoom in on me.

That’s right.

I give them props for control over the camera. Zoom in on me.

Please notify the Pope.

Please.

Notify all the Catholic believers.

Amen.

That are watching me now.

Amen.

I said, to declare Mary as the mother of God, is a lie.

That’s a lie. Amen. It’s right.

It’s a lie.

It’s a lie.

Did you hear what I said?

That’s right.

God.

God.

Has no mother.

Without a Father. That’s right.

God has no Father, he is Father.

Yes, that’s right.

We associate none with him.

Amen. Amen.

So I mean, this is the classic one though, that I hear a lot of Protestants say. It’s like, well, Mary can’t be the mother of God because God has no mother. And here, we’re equivocating on what the term God means.

Oh, yeah. And you notice it even more in his next line, where he says God is Father.

Right.

Because it doesn’t make any sense to the Son is Father, the Holy Spirit is Father, unless you’re a oneness Pentecostal.

Right. And so just to be clear, so people understand, why Pastor Gino Jennings rejects that Mary is the mother of God, is because he does not believe that Jesus was always God.

Right.

That’s what it seems. He seems to hold an adoptionst view that there was this human being named Jesus that the spirit of God went into.

Yes.

And so that seems to be how… Basically, this is also the heresy, is called modalism. So it’s like God is Father and then he pours himself into this human, Jesus, and then comes back again as the Holy Spirit, and returns as Father. It’s very confusing, but there can never be under the oneness view. You can’t have the Father, son, and Holy Spirit be three distinct persons, each of which is equally divine.

Yeah. Maybe it’s worth just saying at the outset, what should we say in response to that? Why would someone believing in the Trinity, say that view’s wrong? And you can give just one passage people can look to, John 14.

Right.

The last supper. Jesus says, get in verse 16, I will pray the Father, and he will give you another counselor to be with you forever. Even the spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. Now, what has he just said there? The son is going to ask the Father to send the spirit. So clearly there are three distinct persons here.

Right.

And you already have the indwelling of God. So if all that makes Jesus special is that God dwells within him, then he’s no different than the apostles.

Right. So we just want to lay this framework, because you’ll hear Pastor Gino just say things just off the cuff, wondering, what is he talking about? That’s the framework he’s using. There’s not three distinct divine persons, there’s only God. He’s one person, but he takes different modes. And so that’s why he would say Jesus is not always God, Mary’s not the mother of God. The other point I would raise before we continue, is that when Protestants say this too, well God has no mother. Well, if by the word God, you mean the Trinity.

Right.

Sure. But if by the word God, you mean divine person. If Jesus is a divine person, then Jesus has a mother.

Yeah. We got to make a person nature distinction here, because he’ll say, oh, well Mary’s the mother of Jesus’s humanity. And they seem to mean, by that, that she can’t be the mother of Jesus, a divine person, because she doesn’t pre originate him.

Right.

And that just conflates a whole lot of things. Your mother and Father aren’t just the mother and Father of your humanity, they’re the mother and Father of your human person.

Right. And so the personhood, Mary did not give Jesus his divinity.

Right.

But she is… A mother is someone who gestates a person in her womb, and then gives birth to that person.

Right. When someone is pregnant, they’re pregnant with a person, not with a nature.

Not with a nature. And if Jesus is all… And that’s where Pastor Jennings will disagree. And Protestants, if they deny Mary is the mother of God, if they say Mary is not the mother of God, then they’ll have to embrace Pastor Gino Jennings view that, well, Jesus became God later. He wasn’t always been God.

Yeah. You end up with, at best, nestorianism, and at worst, just kind of an adoptionism. And he flirts with both.

So let’s play with that, and we’ll explain those terms in a bit.

You just can’t quote a scripture in a passage in Genesis and get away with it.

No, no.

When you quote a scripture… Whenever you quote a scripture to the truth of God, the intelligence of the highest step in.

That’s right. That’s right. [inaudible 00:11:27].

Dive into that.

That’s right.

[inaudible 00:11:34] You get what I’m telling you?

Amen.

Whenever you quote any scripture.

Go ahead.

For the truth of God.

Go ahead.

Guarantee the intelligence of God adjusting the wings waiting.

Oh, yes.

God is a back catcher.

That’s right.

Waiting for it.

That’s right. Go ahead.

All right, let’s get this.

All right. When I give a talk though, Joe, can you be in the background just saying, that’s right and amen?

I like the guy behind him, who leans in to get in the shot, and then just cheers and collapse. It’s nice. We’re now more than three minutes into the video. And all he’s said is, I disagree, but he said it was such charm and such theatrics and bravado that you just want to be like, I hope he’s right. I mean, he’s really building up, building up, building up. Let’s see what he has to say.

All right.

[inaudible 00:12:22] in the book of Luke, let’s analyze it and strip it back, and see, is Mary God’s mother?

Luke chapter one, and we’ll begin at verse 42.

Listen.

And she spoke out with a loud voice, and said, blessed art thou among women.

Blessed art thou among women.

Holy.

Now that right there.

That’s right.

Right there, I got you.

That’s right there.

Because you said that Mary is blessed above.

That’s right.

Women.

That’s right. That’s right.

You said the book said that she’s blessed above.

That’s right.

The book says, among.

Among women. Right along with the rest of the women.

Among women. Along with all the rest of the women.

That’s right.

You get what I’m talking?

No I don’t, but I’m giving him points to originality here, because I’ve never heard this objection before.

Yeah. If Mary’s blessed among women, therefore all women are blessed, or all women are the mother of Jesus?

Or that she’s not special, because she’s not above women. She’s blessed among women. Pastor, the whole point, is that blessed among women means Mary is a human woman, but unlike any other human woman, she gave birth to God. And so she is blessed among them. Just like when Jesus says that among those born of men, there is none greater than John the Baptist. Among them, he has a high stature, and that’s true for Mary.

Yeah. I think in some ways he’s responding to kind of a fictitious version of the Catholic view, that we don’t think Mary’s a woman anymore because she’s above women. No. No one believes that.

Right.

So you’re responding to a view held by nobody.

Spoke out with a loud voice, and said, blessed art thou among women.

Yes.

And blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And once is this to me.

Yes.

That the mother of my Lord should come to me.

The mother of what?

The mother of my Lord. [inaudible 00:14:11].

The mother of what?

The mother of my Lord. All that. Amen.

These two are like a comedy duo. They got a good bit back and forth.

They do.

That’s right.

It’s time to do the science.

That’s right. That’s right.

[inaudible 00:14:24] There was a word in front of Lord.

Yes, it was.

Actually overlooked.

That’s right. That’s right. Amen.

You better get… The Lord.

They Lord.

Said.

In Matthew.

Let’s break down the meaning of my Lord.

That’s it. That’s it.

Listen. Come on, let’s go to work.

Passage chapter 22, we’ll start at verse 42.

Start wherever you like.

Saying, what think he of Christ?

What?

Do you think of Christ, whose son is he?

Whose son is he?

You would think I’d be sick of the repetition bit, but I still am amused by it.

No, he’s got a great cadence. It’s really pleasing to listen to.

Really pleasing to listen to.

Really pleasing to listen to.

Go back and read that again, saying, what think he of Christ?

What do you think of Christ?

Whose son is he?

Whose son is he?

They say unto him.

In other words, we’re trying to find a Father.

That’s right.

They said to him.

The son of David.

David is his Father. He says unto this. They respond, David is his Father. He is the son of David. So now that respond resurrects a question.

That’s right.

Well, how then David-

In spirit.

In the spirit.

Call him Lord.

How would David call his son Lord?

That’s right. That’s right. That’s Jesus talking. That’s right.

How in the world? If David is the Father, how will David call his son, Lord?

Lord. That’s right.

The Lord. The Lord said. The Lord. The Lord said.

Unto.

Unto.

My.

My.

Lord.

Lord.

We’re going to go in a little bit, but if you’re utterly confused, and that’s understandable, pastor Gino is trying to make hay of the fact that Elizabeth says to Mary, the mother of my Lord.

And that is the mother of the Lord.

That if Jesus were truly God, Elizabeth would say, how is it that the mother of the Lord has come to me instead of the mother of my Lord? As if there’s some difference between saying that Jesus is the Lord and my Lord, as if only true God would be the Lord. My Lord means something completely different. And then he hearkens back to the psalm, the messianic prediction that Jesus himself references of David to talk about his own divine messianic status. How does the Lord said to my Lord? And so we’ll get into that. But first, just the distinction between the Lord and my Lord, well, you go back. You look John 2028.

Exactly. St. Thomas, after seeing the wounds on the side of Jesus on divine mercy Sunday, says, my Lord and my God. So if you’re going to say, my Lord doesn’t mean God, what about the rest of that sentence? My God.

Yeah.

Does my God mean God, or does that mean something else too?

Right. So what you’ll see, is that I think sometimes people can be taken in by this, because they’ll hear someone with extreme confidence.

Yes.

And that’s what’s really hard, is a lot of people will judge a claim solely by the confidence of the person making it.

And notice, by the way, the New Testament passage that he’s breaking open, is Jesus stumping his [inaudible 00:17:40].

Right.

In other words, he’s purposely taking a confusing part of the Old Testament, to show them that they don’t get it.

Right.

So Pastor Gino has no such qualms, he’s just confident he does get it. But when you’re starting with something that’s highlighted as confusing, and using that to explain something clear, your method is all backwards.

Right.

You should use the clear parts to interpret those parts that are less clear, not start with the parts that are intentionally opaque, and use your own misunderstanding to misinterpret the clear parts.

Right. So now we understand that there’s no distinction between the Lord and my Lord, right?

Right. I mean, there is in the one particular passage you’re looking at, but it doesn’t mean the rest of the Bible, every time the Lord is-

That’s right. Just because my Lord is, in that passage where David is speaking of, the Lord said to my Lord, we see the Father talking to the divine Son, who is the Messiah, who are separate persons, not one person. There’s a distinction there, but that doesn’t mean it applies to the rest of the New Testament. So we’ll listen more.

Sorry, one last thing to add.

Sure.

Because one of the things Jesus is pointing out is, how can we say the Messiah is the Son of David, when David it treats him as already existing, and is distinct from the Father, back in the Old Testament.

Right.

In other words, he’s actually answering the heresy of oneness Pentecostals, because it’s showing that the Messiah is both the son of David, which Jesus readily affirms, which the New Testament readily affirms.

Right.

And isn’t newly created in the first century. That the Son o... Read more on Catholic.com