Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Counsel of Trent podcast. I’m your host, Catholic Answers apologist and speaker, Trent Horn. I just got back to my hotel room after doing the three-hour-long debate on the Whatever Podcast. I did that last week, and the debate was on sex work, but I prefer to call it pornography and prostitution, is it bad for society? Myself and Lila Rose engaging Destiny and Jazmen Jafar from OnlyFans. I think it went really well, and I have some highlights here I wanted to share with you guys. If you want to watch the entire debate, I mean, it’s not like a formal debate. It’s more like three hours of dialogue and cross-examination. If you want to watch the whole thing, click on the link below. Otherwise, I think you’ll enjoy a lot of these highlights I want to share with you.

I do have two disclaimers before I show that. Number one, there was a fair amount of immodesty in this episode on the part of the dress of, well, one of the participants, won’t be hard for you to figure out who. Of course, so there’s an issue of immodesty that was beyond my control when it comes to this setup on someone else’s podcast. If you find that to be something that you’re not comfortable seeing or it’s a stumbling block or it presents a difficulty, I would recommend, just go to iTunes or Google Play and download the audio link to the episode. I might put that below as well. If that’s just more helpful for you, maybe listening to the audio would just be better.

Another thing, even if you do listen by audio, though, is that we’re talking about pornography and prostitution. The conversation was very graphic at times. There was profanity, and there was references to graphic depictions of sexual acts, because I felt it was important to discuss pornography for what it is, just as I would show people abortion for what it is and how ugly it is. While I wouldn’t show people pornography, because that’s evil to depict, I felt it was important to, without euphemism, describe the disordered acts that occur in pornography and among prostitutes, prostitution, and so I described that in very frank and graphic ways. If you’re not comfortable hearing that or profanity, which we just didn’t have time to really edit out because there’s just so much of it in the discussion, then this might not be a good episode for you to watch, but I did feel like it was important.

I mean, pornography is widespread, people are always defending so-called sex work. I felt this was a very important conversation to have, to engage this issue, and especially to be on a podcast like the Whatever Podcast, to engage this in front of an audience of many people who’d probably disagree on a lot of these fronts, to put that out there, so it was great. I’m really thankful that Brian let Lila and I come on and brought Destiny and Jazmen in as well. I’d love to do more dialogues like this in the future. That’s all I want to say to introduce it, and then just give those disclaimers. If there’s immodesty, if you find that to be difficult or if it’s a stumbling block or whatever it may be, listen to the audio of the podcast. Also, in the audio, there is profanity and graphic depictions of sexuality. If that is something that you have a stumbling block with, you may want to skip this episode. Otherwise, I hope you appreciate these highlights from my debate on pornography and prostitution on the recent Whatever Podcast.

There are studies that show, I have one right here, that shows that married people who more frequently view porn, even if it’s together, even if it’s like, “We’re consenting, this is a thing we’re doing together,” are more likely to experience marital dissatisfaction down the line than couples that do not look at porn together, so pornography has a pernicious effect even on consenting couples who are saying, “We’re doing this together. It’s so great.”

That was a longitudinal study based on the social science survey with 2,000 people. It’s not just a correlative effect.

Even if in our minds we rationalize and we live in the unreality of, “This is not affecting me, I can have this open marriage or I can have this open relationship and my partner can look at porn or have another sexual relationship,” it still affects you in the real world, and it still affects your long-term potential for happiness, and not just fidelity, but happiness and fulfillment in the relationship. We can tell ourselves a theory or a myth of, “Hey, it’s going to be okay, I’m cool with this,” but in reality, it doesn’t work that way in the long run.

See, with a lot of this, I’m not sure if you guys are really frustrated looking up this stuff too, because so many studies conflict when it comes to porn and viewing. It’s like, women who view pornography report higher sexual satisfaction when they view it with a partner. In fact, the data on women, a lot of-

Why would that be, Jazmen? Why would that be?

What do you mean, why would that be?

Well, you just said women report higher satisfaction if the porn is being viewed with a partner, because at least they feel like, “I’m not being 100% cheated on in this moment, because I’m doing it with them.”

No, I don’t think. I think you’re just putting your framework on everybody else. I’m a woman, too. I don’t care if my partner watches porn. It’s not just me trying to satisfy him. It’s not just me being like … I think a lot of people, you have to separate being with another partner physically versus porn, because I think the numbers there would be vastly different on who’s okay if their partner, when they’re not around, is watching porn, versus who is okay with them sleeping with another person in real life. I think you’re going to get widely different opinions there from girlfriends, wives, women, on whether that’s okay or not.

I would say when we look at the studies, like for example, in 2023, Engelkamp et al published a study in the Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy. It did a quantitative analysis, and the most common themes among couples where the man views pornography is that the woman is glad that he talked about it openly, but disapproves, or is allowing the husband to look at pornography but does not want to hear about it. I think you would say that only a minority of women are positively in favor of this. It’s either negative or ambivalent.

Well, and I think the point of the longitudinal study you mentioned and I mentioned is that even those that say they’re in favor of it and are watching it as a couple have worse outcomes down the line. I think that’s part of the point here, is that even if you … You’re in a very unique situation, you’re making your living doing this thing, right, and so in your mind, of course it’s going to be great. I know you’re going to defend it and say it’s going to be great, but the reality is, even people that are defending it or saying, “It’s fine in my marriage,” down the line, don’t have the best outcome.

Do you think it’s bad, Jazmen, that the average first stage of exposure to pornography is 11 years old?

I don’t think that’s ideal, but I don’t think [inaudible 00:06:49]-

It’s not as, I said, “Is it bad?”

Yeah, I think it’s bad, but I’m not seeing that it’s so bad that it’s leading to such terrible outcomes, because it’s not. Where are these outcomes?

What happens when children are exposed to pornography?

Actually, there’s also a lot of conflicting data on that. A lot of the data on this is really frustrating because it’s really conflicting. I have studies-

I want to know, is it bad when 11-year-olds, their first exposure to pornography … I’m just saying, that’s a bad thing.

Yeah, it’s a bad thing in the sense that it’s not real.

Why is it bad? What does it do to them?

They’re not old enough. Their prefrontal cortex isn’t developed enough to be able to look at that and realize what’s real, what’s not real, how sex is supposed to go, so I don’t think porn is a great way-

How is sex supposed to go?

Probably not like … If you’re on PornHub watching eight people gangbang someone, they’re going to think that that is normal.

That’s not normal? Me-too is a response to people seeing women as commodities that they can acquire and seeing sex as a means of acquiring that commodity, basically. It’s responding to a dehumanizing view of sex. Now, I agree many people don’t have that view, but I do think that the hedonistic view of sex does lead to that, but here’s the question I wanted to ask, just to get back to what sex is for and why. I think it shows that this view of sex is absurd. All right, suppose you had a friend and they said … Because this is partly an idea that sex, it’s a hedonistic activity people can share with consent. Like, say, for example, like martial arts. Martial arts, if I go-

Nobody thinks sex is like that, though.

No, no, hold on, let me make the analogy.

Okay.

If I start martial arts with somebody without their consent, I’ll go to jail because that’s assault, right?

Mm-hmm.

If I just go up and punch somebody, but I can ask them, “Hey, do you want to spar with me a little bit?” Then, that’s okay because we have consent, and it’s this kind of activity. Now, would it be healthy to have a friend who says, “Hey, I’m glad you and I are getting into martial arts together, but I really feel like we can only be friends if you only do martial arts with me,” or, “We can only be friends if you only do tennis with me,” or, “I want you to be my only friend. You’re the only friend that I have.” With those examples, would you say that those are disordered friendships?

Probably, yeah.

All right, so my next question would be, is it disordered for someone to say, “I want you to be the only person I have sex with. You’re the only person who has sex with me.” Do you think that’s disordered?

Not necessarily, no.

What’s the difference between activities that are pleasurable and consensual, martial arts, chess, tennis, spending time together, and sex, then? What is the difference between the two that one is disordered, it’s a friendship you should not get in, and the other we would say not even that it’s not disordered, but it’s the way things ought to be, with sex.

It might be the love of your life in a marriage.

What’s the difference?

The difference is going to be the preference of the people that are partaking in these things. Some people might feel like they like to do martial arts with a lot of people, and for sexual activity, I think people tend to prefer to be more exclusive with that. There’s probably other things we could think of that tend to be-

Is that natural, or should we think that’s the way they ought to treat sex?

Whether or not it’s natural or not is a separate question.

Well, it seems obvious that if someone says, “I want you to be my only friend and you can’t have other friends,” we’d say that’s a friendship you probably shouldn’t get into, right?

Generally, yeah.

Then why-

If we’re going to use the natural-

Why don’t we say the same thing then, about, “I want you to be the only person I have sex with”? In fact, we say that’s a good thing.

If we’re talking about sex, we’re-

Hold on, wait, wait, because-

If a subscriber told to me, “You’re only person, I’m the only person I want you to have,” I would say, “No, that’s not the context of this relationship.”

Well, it’s your business.

Yeah, because you’re selling a business and you can’t have one customer.

Yes. Problematic porn use is bad, but is porn bad and is sex bad? That’s the question.

I think sex is great. I think porn is bad.

Jazmen, what’s the difference between porn use and problematic porn use?

Problematic porn use is where people personally identify. That’s the medical term, with it being a problem in their lives, which is very small. The only representative sample we have puts it at 4% of men.

Is it possible for someone to use porn in a bad way if they don’t personally feel anything bad about it?

What do you mean? Can you give me an example of how using porn in a bad way in the context of-

A husband looks at porn, talks to OnlyFans girls, masturbates to them, and his wife hates it, but he doesn’t think it’s a big deal and it’s really hurting their marriage, and she wants to leave.

Yeah, just like if he drinks alcohol too much and she doesn’t like it, but he still does it, that’s bad. It’s bad when people violate the boundaries of their relationship.

Let me try another one, then. Let’s say, what if the wife says, “You talking to any woman on the face of the earth hurts me and makes me upset.” Would you say that that wife has an inappropriate boundary?

No, because there’s a lot of people that are like that and they literally don’t-

That her husband cannot talk to any woman, even a female secretary. She’s so hyper jealous.

My family is from the Middle East. This is literally how they set up societies.

Do you think that’s good?

I don’t think that’s good, but if there are people who that’s the way that they’re happy … I don’t think that’s good. I think the way you guys live your life isn’t great. You guys don’t think the way I live my life is great. The point is that when we allow people to do what’s conducive to their own happiness, that’s-

No, but what I’m asking you is that, can a spouse have boundary expectations that are reasonable and unreasonable?

I think if we’re going to use a reasonable person standard, that depends on the community, sure. I mean, certain communities, and in your community, porn is bad. In our community, it’s fine.

I’m just talking about community … Even this community out here who is, non-disclosed location, would be listening in on this, that an unreasonable boundary would be, a girlfriend says, “My boyfriend can’t talk to any other women,” that that would be unreasonable, and a reasonable one would be, “My boyfriend should not be going around looking at other naked women.”

That’s fine, so you guys also think masturbation in general?

Yeah. What do you mean by you guys?

Well, I’ve watched your video. You said masturbation just in general is wrong. I don’t think that our community standard would agree with you. I would agree that maybe I’m farther this way, but you are definitely nowhere near where the reasonable person-

I’ll bite the bullet, there are definitely boundaries that are pathological, that are not okay, and there are probably some that are okay. We can probably draw a circle around some that are okay or not.

We’re not debating whether our sexual ethic is good or bad. We’re debating whether your sexual ethic is bad.

If there’s a woman who’s 13, 14-

Do think that’s bad?

I was one of these and I was like, “Oh, choking is kind of hot,” and then when I got a boyfriend I was like, “I want to try out choking,” and we both agreed that this is what we want to do. How is that harmful?

Are you saying that it’s not bad for a 13-year-old girl to seek out choking porn?

No, I don’t think it’s bad. I think if that’s what you’re into-

You think maybe it’s a good thing to show that to her.

Right, and then I also want to say, where is this harm?

You think, repeat this. It’s not bad for a 13-year-old girl to seek out porn where women are choked as part of sexual violence.

I don’t think it’s wrong for girls, when they’re exploring their sexuality and they do that through porn, if they like being dominated. I’m one of these girls, to see that represented in porn.

Would it be wrong for an adult to show a 13-year-old girl that?

Yes, but that’s different. It’s different because there’s an imbalance thing. You’re not supposed to show children this, but if a child … If I, when I was 13, 14-

How about a 16-year-old boyfriend shows it to her?

If he’s like, “Hey, are you into this?” I don’t think that’s bad either.

Wait, wait, 16-year-old boyfriend with a 16-year-old girlfriend, or 16-year-old boyfriend with a 13-year-old girlfriend?

With a 13-year-old girlfriend.

Oh, well that’s different. It’s three years. Three years is typically-

15.

If it’s within the, before it becomes statutory rape, when they’re not even supposed to be having sex, if it’s 16 and 13, in most states they’re not even supposed to be having sex.

16 and 14. I know that the Romeo and Juliet law is different in every case.

Yeah, so 15 and 16, or 13 and 14, whatever you want to say, if it’s two people of the same age and they’re just exploring what each other likes and there’s consent and both people are comfortable with it and it turns them on, it’s okay for them to explore things.

Wait, now let’s go back, then. It sounds like what you’re saying is, fine, 13. How about a 10-year-old girl is looking up this stuff?

I mean that’s really young, but I think that’s still part of normal exploration. I agree. I wish this wasn’t available to children.

Are children harmed when they see pornography?

Well, the research on that is kind of mixed. I actually have a couple studies.

Your answer is, “I don’t know”?

The answer is that there’s research going in both ways and it’s not just me that doesn’t know.

Let me ask you this. If the research goes both ways and we don’t know, should it be a crime, then, to show children pornography?

Yeah, I think children, yes, but we’re not talking about-

Why? Because saying you’re saying we don’t even know if it causes harm.

It’s also a crime to give children alcohol. Is alcohol bad? The other thing I wanted to point out is, if you’re talking about the link to sexual-

It can be very bad for children.

No, here’s why it’s a crime to give children alcohol, that children cannot consent to activities that are capable of gravely damaging them, or even damaging them at all. Kids have to have their parents sign them up for sports teams. They can’t just sign up on their own. It seems like, then, that we’d have to agree that if porn doesn’t damage kids, then they don’t need parents, they don’t need consent, and they don’t need a law to protect them, right, if it doesn’t damage them.

I think that it’s really mixed on if it damages or doesn’t, so to err on the safe side, with children, I’m okay with … I wish we could keep it away from children, but we can’t.

Okay, let me-

By that logic, then, there’s differing opinions about whether childhood football damages children too much or not, so by that logic, we should treat childhood football teams as being as wrong and necessary to outlaw as showing porn to children.

Okay, wait, here’s a question.

Which doesn’t make any sense.

What damages the child?

Yes, that’s my question. It’s not just porn, it’s also, we haven’t talked to this very much. It’s also prostitution. You want data? I’ll give you data. Look up Cho et al, C-H-O, a 2013 study covering 150 different countries showing an increase in human trafficking when prostitution is legalized.

Wait, none of us even disagree with this.

That’s sex work. Why is sex work bad? Prostitution is sex work. Sex work’s bad because it leads to other bad things like human trafficking.

Do you criminalize it-

Wait, that doesn’t make the sex work itself bad.

Yes, it does, because you can use other methods such as-

Hold on, wait. Let’s say it was the case that most of the alcohol we drank in the United States came from the cartel. Would that make alcohol bad?

No, it would make it bad if using alcohol also fueled some other extremely dangerous violent form of alcohol.

That’s what I just said. Let’s say that hypothetically opium was grown in the fields of Afghanistan and that was a huge export for them. Does that make it bad to consume all products, all medical products related to painkillers?

No, I’m not talking about remote cooperation with evil. What I am saying is that if you have different policies when it comes to something like prostitution, for example, if you have a policy where you legalize it, and so it’s legal to both buy and sell sexual services, like you say, you have in Germany or other countries where that’s allowed, you have an increase in human trafficking, but if you have other countries that-

Wait, the increase in human trafficking isn’t necessary for the sex work. It’s just a byproduct. [inaudible 00:17:18].

Yes, it is, and I’ll explain why. Because when you lega... Read more on Catholic.com