In this episode Trent uses 3 longstanding “Rules of the Internet” to analyze the Trump vs. Pope Leo Fued.

To support this channel: https://www.patreon.com/counseloftrent

[NEW] Counsel of Trent merch: https://shop.catholic.com/apologists-alley/trent-horn-resources/

Be sure to keep up with our socials!

https://www.tiktok.com/@counseloftrent

https://www.twitter.com/counseloftrent

https://www.instagram.com/counseloftrentpodcast

Trent Horn (00:00):

President Trump and Pope Leo IV have been sparring recently over the ongoing war in Iran. So in today’s episode, we’re going to use three OG rules of browsing the internet from an old used net group in the 90s to help navigate this conflict. Now there’s about 50 rules on this list. So in today’s episode, I’m only going to cover three of them related to this controversy. Starting with rule number 12, anything you say can and will be used against you. This is also called the internet is forever. So if you’re going to say something online, you should probably put some thought into it because even if you delete it, the internet is forever. But that’s not Trump’s posting philosophy, as he often has his aids type away whatever he dictates on the spot. And recently that’s gotten him into trouble with even his most loyal allies after he criticized the Pope, calling him weak among other insults, and then posted this image of himself dressed in a white tunic and a red robe, healing someone by placing his hand on him surrounded by adoring onlookers.

(00:55) I don’t know about you, but it looks like President Trump being depicted as Jesus Christ. Trump later deleted the post and said he thought it was a depiction of him as a Red Cross doctor.

Pope Leo XIV (01:10):

Jesus Christ.

Donald Trump (01:11):

Well, it wasn’t depicted. It was me. I did post it and I thought it was me as a doctor and had to do with Red Cross as a Red Cross worker there, which we support. And only the fake news could come up with that one. So I just heard about it and I said, “How did they come up with that? ” It’s supposed to be me as a doctor making people better, and I do make people better. I make people a lot better.

Trent Horn (01:37):

Sure. That makes sense. Except for the fact that the most recognizable symbol of the Red Cross, you know, the Red Cross is nowhere in the picture. This is either a lie with a lot of chutzpah behind it, which critics say is the reality of Trump’s tendency toward truthful hyperbole, or it’s a genuine misunderstanding from someone who knows so little about the Bible that he refers to it with terms like two Corinthians. I thought about doing a whole episode just on the Jesus Red Crosspost, but honestly, what else is there to say except that it was insane, it was blasphemous, and should never have been posted in the first place. Even if it was innocent, the scandal alone merited a very sincere and serious apology. But what’s worse are some of the president’s supporters who have such a cult-like devotion to him that they will defend anything he does.

(02:26)
This is hilarious when Protestants who normally rebuke things like papal infallibility end up treating the president with moral authority well beyond anything the Pope would ever claim, as can be seen in Trump’s White House faith office leader, Paula White.

Pope Leo XIV (02:39):

To say no to President Trump would be saying no to God, and I won’t do that.

Trent Horn (02:45):

It’s sad when Catholics treat the president better than the Pope and abuse the Pope just for having different political views. Trump also said on true social, “I don’t want a Pope who criticizes the President of the United States because of doing exactly what I was elected in a landslide to do. ” Okay, so the Pope answers to the Father, the son, and the electoral college. Got it. Perhaps Trump should remember what Daniel 11:36 says about an evil king who “exalts himself and magnify himself above every God and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper until the indignation is accomplished for what is determined shall be done.” We actually have a term for thinking that things like the president’s moral authority goes beyond the Pope’s moral authority and it’s called the heresy of Americanism, which manifests in treating America’s government and values as if they were more foundational than what we’ve received in the deposit of faith.

(03:38)
Pope Lewis 13th condemned Americanism in Testament benevalentia nostra, especially the idea that active virtues like courage were better than passive virtues like obedience. In other words, it’s better to courageously act what you think are America’s interests than be obedient to what the church teaches, which leads to contempt for holy vocations like religious life. Polio the 13th said, “Would to God that more nowadays practice these virtues and the degree of the saints of past times who in humility, obedience, and self-restraint were powerful in word and indeed to the great advantage not only of religion, but of the state and the public welfare.” In fact, it seems providential that Pope Leo the 13th rebuked the Americanist terroristy and now Pope Leo the 14th is showing American Catholics that they cannot give the president an unquestioning allegiance to everything he says that they’re not even called to give to the Pope.

(04:32)
At the same time though, even Pope Leo has to remember the rule that your words can be used against you because he stirred up controversy when he said, “God never answers the prayers of those who wage war.”

Pope Leo XIV (04:43):

Brothers and sisters, this is our God, Jesus, king of peace, who rejects war, who no one can use to justify war. He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war.

Trent Horn (04:56):

This was later parodied in the Babylon B with the headline. Pope Leo explains God does not listen to people who wage war so long as you don’t count Moses, David, Joshua, Elijah, Saul, Gideon, Sampson, or anyone else in the Bible. But the Pope was referencing scripture’s condemnation of those who wage unjust wars because the very next part of his statement cites Isaiah 1:15. “Even though you make many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood.” And while I appreciate that Pope Leo speaks much less off the cuff than his predecessor, there will still be occasions where a qualification could have spared the internet a lot of arguing. Next we have rule number 20. Nothing is to be taken seriously. Although to be more precise, the rule should say not everything is to be taken seriously because in many cases, it’s impossible to tell the difference between sincere absurdity and insincere parody.

(05:49)
The root of this observation comes from Nathan Poe, who posted the following on a young earth creationism form in 2005. Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody a creationist in such a way that someone won’t mistake for the genuine article. This is now called Pose Law and has been expanded to include other topics where it’s almost impossible to tell the difference between a bonker’s fan and the cynical critics making fun of him. I honestly didn’t know if the picture depicting Trump healing someone was sincere or a parody because it looks so much like other parodies of Trump, like this one showing Trump arresting Pope Leo with the help of Officer Jared Lito Jesus. This is the work of anti- MAGA troll Gary Peterson who said, “President Trump has full authority over the Vatican and with Christ as his deputy, he’ll make sure the Pope is properly arrested for blasphemy against our political leaders.” However, lots of people in the comments thought it was really a pro- Trump cartoon, and I don’t blame them when you compare it to other images, like the one Trump himself posted last year of him as the Pope before the conclave that elected Pope Leo, or this one of Trump saving children from a demonic Hillary Clinton.

(07:00)
So when we see over the top stuff like this, we shouldn’t rush to judgment about its message because reality is often stranger than political fan fiction. However, we can point out if a particular person like Trump treats an image or message seriously, even if it turned out it was just parody. Now, in response to Trump’s outlandish rhetoric, many people will say he’s just good at trolling people and his rhetoric shouldn’t be taken seriously, thus invoking Rule 20. But while it might be okay for an awkward teen to have an internet edge lord phase, that’s not okay for the guy who has access to the nuclear codes. That doesn’t justify things like his threat on April 7th that quote, “A whole civilization will die tonight in Iran and spending Easter morning posting about how he will bomb civilian infrastructures.” Following through on these threats would make you a war criminal.

(07:49)
The problem, however, is that for decades, liberals have embodied an internet rule known as Godwin’s law, which says, as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. As a result, they’ve said every Republican president, no matter how mild is Hitler. And so people tuned out when they said the same over the top stuff about Trump, even though some of Trump’s statements are legitimately concerning. If Trump’s threats about wiping out civilizations were real, then soldiers would have a moral duty to disobey his orders. And if the threats were just truthful hyperbole, as Trump might say, and not meant to be taken literally, then they’re still evil because as scripture says, “Only a madman would make such heinous threats and then say, I am only joking.” Pope Leo had this to say about President Trump’s comments.

Pope Leo XIV (08:37):

Attacks on civilian infrastructure is against international law, but that it is also a sign of the hatred, the division, the destruction that the human being is capable of. And we all want to work for peace. People want peace. I would invite the citizens of all the countries involved to contact the authorities, political leaders, congressmen to ask them, tell them to work for peace and to reject war always. Thank you very

Pope Leo XIV (09:08):

Much. Thank

Trent Horn (09:09):

You. Not every prudential judgment the Pope makes is correct or binding upon Catholics. The Catholics have a duty to give their spiritual father deference and respectful consideration. They certainly shouldn’t imitate Trump’s remarks in talking down to the vicar of Christ who is just reiterating centuries of Catholic doctrine on just war theory. At the very least, Christianity demands that we treat war as a necessary evil and nothing to celebrate. In 1917, in the midst of World War I, Pope Benedict the 15th urged for the hope of bringing about as soon as possible the cessation of this tremendous struggle with which each passing day appears increasingly to be a useless slaughter. Even in the Middle Ages, Pope Nicholas I said war can be fought when it is impossible to avoid, but still candidly declared that war is always satanic in its origin. So when we discuss important political topics online, be it war or other issues involving the sanctity of human life, we should do our best to keep the conversation on the most important points.

(10:09)
This can even include thoughtful illusions to previous injustices in history, like comparing abortion to the Holocaust or Trump’s actions to previous unjust wars. And many people can do that and maintain a civil discussion, except for one group, which brings me to our last rule in example number three, which is embodied in rule 14. Do not argue with trolls, it means they win. The internet is a rough place. I don’t like it. I wish I could get off it and never go on again. To modify St. Paul and Philippians chapter one, my desire is to depart and be with Christ in real life for that is far better, but to remain online is more necessary for you. One of the negative things about online forums and comment threads is that it is designed by algorithms to reward bad addictive behavior that encourages engagement and keeping people on the site for as long as possible.

(10:59)
All this is done to maximize the time we spend online so we’re more likely to consume advertising. That’s why I want to thank our patrons at trrentornpodcast.com because your contributions have helped keep Council of Trent sponsor free. YouTube reserves the right to run ads on all channels. That’s why I really don’t want to add sponsorships on top of any ads they might run. Thankfully, we haven’t had to do that because of the generosity of our patrons. And if you want to help us continue to create great content, then please support us at trenthornpodcast.com. Now, in a 2026 address, Pope Leo IV said regarding this issue that, “There has long been abundant evidence that algorithms design to maximize engagement on social media, which is profitable for platforms, reward quick emotions and penalize more time-consuming human responses, such as the effort required to understand and reflect. By grouping people into bubbles of easy consensus and easy outrage, these algorithms reduce our ability to listen and think critically and increase social polarization.

(11:59)
And this happens on steroids when Donald Trump is discussed because the conversation is dominated by people who either have Trump derangement syndrome and think he can do nothing right, or people who are Trump idolaters who think he can do nothing wrong. Personally, I’m grateful that Trump’s Supreme Court picks have allowed surgical abortion to be illegal where I live. I’m also grateful for policies of his that are much less friendly to radical LGBT ideology. Just because I may be critical of the president doesn’t mean I want when in some respects is a far worse alternative, as embodied in Kamala Harris being the first vice president to visit an abortion facility or the Biden administration celebrating perverted transgender activists at the White House. I can be grateful for presidential policies that stand and start contrast to Democrats on abortion while criticizing Trump’s push for IVF, as I’ve done in previous episodes.

(12:51)
I can also be sympathetic to Pope Leo’s calls for the war in Iran to end as quickly as possible while still being peeved that recent Popes often treat American Republicans differently than American Democrats. For example, while Pope Francis railed against deportations under Trump, I don’t recall him saying anything about the greater number of deportations under Obama and Biden. Likewise, I want to yak when I see the Iranian president suck up to Pope Leo saying, “I condemned the insult to your excellency on behalf of the great nation of Iran while his own country has increased imprisonment of Christians sixfold. And according to the US Commission on Interreligious Freedom, Iran’s government carried out over 900 executions in 2024 and issued scores of death sentences for religiously based charges.” So in order to move these important conversations forward, we have to honestly admit the difficulties on both sides and ignore the people who use rhetorical bombs to unbendingly defend their absolute stance on the matter.

(13:50)
The best way to give trolls like that their comeuppance is to follow the advice of G.K. Chesterton who said, “Silence is the unbearable repartee.” Whereas the 1983 Classic Film War Games put it- The only winning move is not today. Finally, I know there’s going to be people in the comments who will complain about me being critical of President Trump and other people who say I haven’t gone far enough in criticizing him. And it’s okay to have those debates. We just need to always be aware that the people we are debating online are people. I’ll close with the following excerpt from the Vatican’s Decastry of Communications 2023 document entitled Towards Full Presence: A Pastoral Reflection on Engagement with Social Media, whose first few sentences directly quote Pope Francis. It says, “The use of the social web is complimentary to an encounter in the flesh that comes alive through the body, heart, eyes, gaze, and breath of the other.

(14:45)
If the net is used as an extension or expectation of such an encounter, then the network concept is not betrayed and remains a resource for communion. The digital world can be an environment rich in humanity, a network not of wires, but of people. If we remember that on the other side of the screen, there are no numbers or mere aggregates of individuals, but people who have stories, dreams, expectations, sufferings, there is a name and a face. For more on this topic, I recommend my previous episode covering the problem of idolatry on the political right and my colleague Joe Heschmeyer’s recent take on Trump’s rhetoric, both of which are linked in the description below. Thank you all so much for watching and I hope you have a very blessed day.